I put it to the masses. I recently had my first cache approved (GCJ6B0-S.H.A.T.). In just two short weeks it has already been archived. I believe I "technically" followed the Geocaching.com rules. However, I did provide information in the cache that the GC admins apparently felt was inappropriate. The info card in the cache was for a TOTALLY OPTIONAL Treasure Hunt (not required for a Smiley). My guess is "officially" the cache will not be unarchived. But archived and removed are not the same thing. For those interested, here is the link to the archived cache:

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=30fab0b8-aa1a-40bc-8f10-471973d5b8b8

Just in case you can't get to the cache page because it has been archived, here is the cache description:
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S.H.A.T. (GCJ6B0) 2/2
N 33° 58.077 W 084° 21.401 (WGS84)

Have you ever noticed how many different Aptitude Tests there are in our world? Well here are just a few that you may be aware of. You may even have taken one or two of these tests yourself.

SAT - Scholastic Aptitude Test
PSAT - Preliminary Scholastic Aptitude Test
GMAT - Graduate Management Aptitude Test
PAT - Puppy Aptitude Test
CAT - Computer Aptitude Test
DAT - Differential Aptitude Test, Dental Aptitude Test
RAT - Real-World Aptitude Tests, Reporters Aptitude Test
MCAT - Medical College Admission Test
VAT - Veterinary Aptitude Test
OAT - Optometry Aptitude Test
PCAT - Pharmacy College Aptitude Test
WAT - Workplace Aptitude Test

I have decided to add one more aptitude test to the plethora that already exist. This new test is for Geocachers and it is called SHAT - Smiley Hound Aptitude Test. As with any test, you will have choices to make. Those choices are neither right nor wrong. They simply allow us to tell something about you as a Geocacher.

You must bring your own Pen/Pencil to sign the log.
You MUST post your SHAT Score with your on-line log.
If it is determined that you cheated in anyway, your log will be EXPELLED!

Put down your pencils. Pick up your GPS. You may now begin.

Good Luck & NO CHEATING!

P.S. Extra Credit if you can tell me what the acronym TMFR means.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: The Rogue,

The cache was archvied due to being on NPS lands not because you added an extra treasure hunt. However I do have one question though. Why didnt Mtn-man archive the cache? Why did the NC/VA approver archive it?

The cache I submitted for approval is NOT on NPS land. The info card IN the cache tells the finder about a Treasure Hunt. IF they choose to participate in the hunt that is up to them. As far as the cache goes, they found it and they get a smiley for it.

If I left coordinates for NPS parking areas for informational purposes, would that be against the rules? What if I left religious pamphlets in the cache, is that against the rules? I didn't leave knives, any dangerous items, or pornography in the cache. What if I wrote down the S.H.A.T. coordinates in the logbook of another cache, would that cache then be archived because it contained subversive information? All I left was little bitty card that gave the cache finder the OPTION of participating in a Treasure Hunt.

The lawyers in the group should understand my position. The letter of the law and the intent of the law don't always go hand in hand. How many times do folks use technicalities or loop holes to get what they want. I believe I have played by GC.com rules. I'm sure somewhere on Geocaching.com there's a sign that states, "We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service to Anyone."

To be honest, when I first read the topic line I thought, "Well, duh! Why wouldn't they censor a cache with with the past-tense of such a word for a name." But who knows, maybe no one else thought that.

I guess I could have called it F.O.E. (Freedom of Expression), but the acronym I chose seemed to go along with test theme.

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Originally posted by Amazingracer:
The cache was archvied due to being on NPS lands not because you added an extra treasure hunt. However I do have one question though. Why didnt Mtn-man archive the cache? Why did the NC/VA approver archive it?

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It seems the cache was not on NPS land, but the optional "treasure hunt" is.
My guess it that this is why mtn-man did not archive it, just commenting for the cache owner to correct the "treasure hunt".
He gave a chance for the cache owner to fix it, but another admin misunderstood and thought the cache was on NPS property.

Kenneth

AR, to answer your question, from time to time we ask other reviewers to look at caches so it will not spoil the fun for us. For a puzzle cache it lets us enjoy the puzzle. Since honeychile reviewed the cache she also archived it. I have sent her an email telling her that she could unarchive the first part of the cache.

My log was meant as an informative log to future seekers and a note to the cache hider to remove the second part. People who bring small children to the first location need to know what to expect.

I sent Rogue an email a short time ago regarding this cache and the second part of it.

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I have told honeychile that she should unarchive your cache. We have been in contact today. I will let her unarchive it since she archived it to begin with. I didn't expect her to archive it frankly.

Now for the matter of your "treasure" on National Park Service land.

The GA Geocachers Association (GGA) has been in negotiations with the Chattahoochee River National Recreation Area (CRNRA) for around two years. They began pulling caches about 18 months ago. We have negotiated hard with them during the past 18 months. We finally came to an agreement with them that we would not list any caches in their National Park area. It is a violation of Federal Law to leave unattended items in the National Parks without express written permission. You are breaking Federal Law.

I think it is a shame that you would want to hurt all of the cachers in GA. It would be easy to just remove your box from off of the trail north of the river. You also need to remove the card out of the micro cache. We have worked hard on keeping a good relationship with the CRNRA. It only takes one illegal cache to screw all that up. I will discuss the options with the other Steering Committee members for the GGA if need be, but it would be nice if you would be the better man and do whats right.

Let me know.

mtn-man

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Rogue, its your call.

The other consideration, I suppose, is whether anyone would actually go seek a cache that potentially posed problems for the GGA or was in violation of the general guidelines (either letter of the law or intent) of the game.

I, for one, would not.

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
The cache I submitted for approval is NOT on NPS land. The info card IN the cache tells the finder about a Treasure Hunt. IF they choose to participate in the hunt that is up to them. As far as the cache goes, they found it and they get a smiley for it.

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I agree that they can choose to do the second part, except does the "card" tell the cacher that they are hunting something placed on NPS property and that they could get in trouble for hunting it?

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If I left coordinates for NPS parking areas for informational purposes, would that be against the rules?

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No, since parking in NPS in designated parking is not illegal.
Does the treasure hunt end in the cacher finding something hidden on NPS property or does it take them on a "virtual" hunt? (which if I understand, virtuals are not allowed either, but how could they stop you?).

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What if I left religious pamphlets in the cache, is that against the rules? I didn't leave knives, any dangerous items, or pornography in the cache. What if I wrote down the S.H.A.T. coordinates in the logbook of another cache, would that cache then be archived because it contained subversive information? All I left was little bitty card that gave the cache finder the OPTION of participating in a Treasure Hunt.

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I have found knives in caches and they were not archived.
I've heard of cachers finding pornography and they were not archived.
Why not??? Because either the cacher removed the material or the placer removed the material.
If you really want people to find the cache, then remove the "treasure hunt" material and then request it be unarchived.
I believe geocaching still exists today because we have cachers and admins who try to make sure that caches are fun and follow guidelines for the safety of all.

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The lawyers in the group should understand my position. The letter of the law and the intent of the law don't always go hand in hand. How many times do folks use technicalities or loop holes to get what they want. I believe I have played by GC.com rules. I'm sure somewhere on Geocaching.com there's a sign that states, "We Reserve the Right to Refuse Service to Anyone."

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I'm no lawyer and maybe that is why I don't understand.
If a cache directs (even if by choice of the cacher) someone to do something they should not do, then the admins have a right to archive it.

I'll go a step further. If I was an admin and you posted a note instructing cachers to find it anyway, even though it was archived by an admin, I'd probably totally hide the cache page and consider banning your id.

But, as I said before, I'm not a lawyer....nor am I an admin, so this is just my opinion.

Kenneth

I have to agree with kennethpruett. I am not a lawyer either. Now I believe in people making their own choices good or bad, but it seems to me you are setting people up to do something that frankly is borderline illegal without giving them all the facts.
I also find it selfish to risk all the work the GGA has done to try and rectify previous caching misdeeds done early on by Cachers, just so you could thumb your nose at Authorities by splitting hairs on the interpretation of the law.

As for the religious stuff in the cache. Don't care. You want paint a big pentagram on the side because you worship Satan. Don't care either. Just don't complain when there is not a lot of equal trading. To each their own.

Kenneth was right on the money when he said:

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I believe geocaching still exists today because we have cachers and admins who try to make sure that caches are fun and follow guidelines for the safety of all.

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We don't have a lot of rules just mainly guidelines. Those guidelines not only are for the safety and fun of cachers but also comply with the law. We don't have authorities that check every single cache, we as adults, police ourselves. So if the "Treasure Hunt" is on NPS land, remove it. It is wrong. It's that simple.



By the way when I first saw the name of the cache, I thought it was about William "The Shat" Shatner. Boy am I a GEEK.

The bad, bad cache is gone. It's safe once again to go caching in Georgia.

Thank you.

Ah, I see your note on the cache page now:

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Some morally superior & self righteous local cachers have convinced me how terribly bad this cache is. They showed me how I could have single-handedly devastated caching in Georgia. Thanks goodness for this group. What would we do without them?

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Hmmm... I guess without us there would be no caches in the GA State Parks at all and all of the caches in the CRNRA would have been pulled. Your welcome.

I think this group has a lot to be proud of.

Most people learn from their mistakes and move on. Some don't.

I believe you are right Mtn-Man. We do have a lot to be proud of. It only took a few thoughtless cachers a few months to cause the Ban of caching in all State Parks. It has taken this group nearly 2 years to get them allowed back into Georgia's.

Rogue - I have one thing I would like to ask you...What have you done for Geocaching? You ungrateful big meanspirited baby!

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
The bad, bad cache is gone. It's safe once again to go caching in Georgia.

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Nice sarcasm. The part you seem to have missed is that you tried pulling a fast one to circumvent the ban on geocaching in the National Parks, and you got called on it. A bigger man would have simply said, "OK, you caught me, I'll remove the illegal treasure hunt, thanks for setting me straight." Instead you sound a bit like Eric Cartman from South Park: "Screw you guys, I'm goin' home."

I think Slayerette has it about right.

I'm the ole meanie who both reviewed and archived the cache. I reviewed the cache so that local Georgia reviewers could have the fun of solving what I thought was a kind of puzzle cache. I specifically asked about the "test" and was told that it was something in the cache; no mention was made of an additional "treasure hunt." I feel using a geocache to send seekers to what amounts to another cache in a spot where geocaching is prohibited is a misuse of the system. Calling it censorship is just a pretext. I'm also dismayed to find that the original location was on private property. That, also, was not disclosed.

I'm feeling like I'm the one who was shat upon in this whole sorry story since I didn't get honest answers to my questions about the cache and am now being called a censor and powermonger. The moral to the story is that your geocaching sins will find you out if you attempt to deceive the reviewer because most cachers are good folk who bring problems to the attention of their local reviewers.

Thanks for pulling the cache, Rogue. I'm glad those "morally superior & self righteous local cachers" were convincing. You saved everyone a lot of trouble and revealed your own character in the process.

And in the immortal words of Gomer Pyle, "FER SHAME, FER SHAME, FER SHAME!"


*+.,_,.+*'`'*+.,_ honeychile_,.+*'`'*+.,_,.+*'`
(geocaching.com volunteer cache reviewer)
email: honeychile@geocachingadmin.com

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Originally posted by BTarver:
The other consideration, I suppose, is whether anyone would actually go seek a cache that potentially posed problems for the GGA or was in violation of the general guidelines (either letter of the law or intent) of the game.

I, for one, would not.

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Problem is, I don't suppose the note directing me to the "treasure hunt" says that the treasure is in a restricted area. And not being a local, I might not realize that I had been sent to an area that prohibits "treasure hunting" (by any name) until it was too late.

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Mtn-Man,"Ah, I see your note on the cache page now:"
Some morally superior & self righteous local cachers have convinced me how terribly bad this cache is. They showed me how I could have single-handedly devastated caching in Georgia. Thanks goodness for this group. What would we do without them?

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Originally posted by The Rogue:
The bad, bad cache is gone. It's safe once again to go caching in Georgia.

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Mr. Rogue,
Before calling us (GGA) morally superior and self righteous I ask if you have attended a GGA meeting? I have never seen you at one and I don't think you have been to one. Clearly if you had, you would look at us (ALL Cashers) as a group that is passionate about our sport. We want it to be enjoyed by all as a good, clean, family sport. Why else would we have had people from Middle Tennesse, South Carolina, Alabama and as far south as Macon at the meeting in Rome? Because we are a group that has found an activity that gets us off the couch, out of the office, away from the tv, telephone and stresses of every day life! We try to observe the rules as set forth by agencies as to maintain peace with them. Make NPS mad and TVA might get an bad taste for caches on their land, and so on and so forth. Good news travels slow but bad news travels like a forest fire.
As you are a newbie, I again ask you to attend a meeting to learn about the sport YOU have decided to join. We invite you with open arms as long as you can play within the rules and regulations as set forth. If not, then so be it. Only you can decide to be a part of us or apart from us.
Jackie Moore aka sledgehampster

A minor point of clarification here, now that the smoke is clearing: It is against NPS rules, which carry the weight of law, to leave personal articless on NPS administered property (it is called "litter"). Geocaches fall under this classification. On the other hand, it is not against the rules to hunt for and/or remove this litter.

And in the "For what it is worth" department, I think JMTBuzz and JMTBuzz Jr were the only ones able to find the "treasure." I may be the only other one who tried (couldn't find it although I got to within 8 ft. of it). I would have rated the terrain at 4.5, and not child friendly. But that's another story.

Dang! It would have been so easy to put the "treasure" 85 feet away, on the other side of The Big Creek!

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Originally posted by Sledgehampster:
As you are a newbie, I again ask you to attend a meeting to learn about the sport YOU have decided to join. We invite you with open arms as long as you can play within the rules and regulations as set forth. If not, then so be it. Only you can decide to be a part of us or apart from us.

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Wow, well said indeed.

I would also extend an invitation to come to a meeting and actually meet us. Cachers make mistakes. No big deal. It is the dealing with the mistakes that builds character. Some of the GGA people have made mistakes in cache placement and have moved on to place better caches. They have become strong members of our group now. Rogue, I'm sure you will find we like challenging caches, but just keep them within the spirit and the letter of the guidelines. That makes everyone happy.

We are a forgiving and fun group if nothing else. Just read through these boards. We would indeed welcome you to one of our meetings. We would joke about this and have fun with it, which is what geocaching is about anyway. We are here to have fun.