The boxcaching.com joke got me looking at the letterboxing site. I searched GA and found 4 in Winder...and they're all in Yargo. I'm assuming that letterboxing doesn't have some kind of special permissions with the parks and is in violation, right? Maybe just that letterboxing isn't as "visible" to TPTB of the parks? Anybody know for sure? Not to be one that gets the letterboxes removed, but should the parks know about them so that they aren't found and mistakenly associated with geocaching and set us back again with the parks?

Very touchy subject. My guess is that they are not on their radar. Since the site is less popular the impact is less. It would be a bummer for it to affect geocachers though.

You said "Not to be one that gets the letterboxes removed, but should the parks know about them so that they aren't found and mistakenly associated with geocaching and set us back again with the parks?"

Hey, check the rules for Yargo.
http://gastateparks.org/page.aspx?s=14493.0.1.5


It sounds like geocachers have already made an unfavorable impression on the regulators of the park. By not using "electronic devices", I can legally plant letterboxes there. And, I took specific care when planting the boxes to avoid any off-trail damage so that the impact isn't even noticeable to a regulator.

Please don't narc out the boxes.

Mark

*** Climbing on my soap box ***

OK, I know I'll probably just aggravate the subject, but I had to comment about the notice in the rules about "electronic devices".

As an avid *former* metal detector user, I learned to check for notices like these before using my equipment in parks and other areas. These notices were specifically set up to ensure that no digging would take place by treasure hunters which would disturb the vegetation and possibly cause damage to historic or archaeologial sites. (Just try to take a metal detector ANYWHERE around Kennesaw mountain - you WILL get fined).

This is one of the reasons I got away from that hobby. So many rules and regulations were cropping up that it took the enjoyment out of the hunt.

Are we now to assume that those same rules and regulations are being applied to geocaching? Per the guidelines, no caches should be buried or require digging. Social trails may be the only danger that the caches might cause.

I know, this horse has been beaten before and it's no use appealing to Yargo right now. However, I don't see how the two hobbies compare. One requires digging while the other mainly just requires sharp eyes. Is everyone at Yargo expected to stay only on the trails and never go exploring beyond them?

It seems to me that if one type of hunting is to be banned in an area, then all *similar* types of hunting should be banned as well.

I'm not saying I'm going to go out and report the letterboxes, but it seems odd that this will be allowed while geocaches are not. I'd rather that both were allowed in the area for a trial period so TPTB in that area can see that they will draw more people to Yargo. Or do they not want people to come there? Something like the AZ virtual that was banned because it was a "cache"? Heaven forbid people actually visit a public area.

Maybe if those same PTB see that the letterboxes cause no problems then they may allow some caches as well. Who knows?

*** Climbing off the soap box ***

Regards,

S-4-C

quote:

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Originally posted by check the rules:
You said "Not to be one that gets the letterboxes removed, but should the parks know about them so that they aren't found and mistakenly associated with geocaching and set us back again with the parks?"

Hey, check the rules for Yargo.
http://gastateparks.org/page.aspx?s=14493.0.1.5


It sounds like geocachers have already made an unfavorable impression on the regulators of the park. By not using "electronic devices", I can legally plant letterboxes there. And, I took specific care when planting the boxes to avoid any off-trail damage so that the impact isn't even noticeable to a regulator.

Please don't narc out the boxes.

Mark

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Mark,

I'm not and/or wasn't planning on narc'ing the boxes. I was simply posting a message to our forum for information about letterboxing and SP's.

But even though you say the planting of the boxes is legal there, I have to disagree just by reading what you posted as the rules for Yargo:

quote:

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Collecting: All wildlife, plant life, driftwood, artifacts, and any other natural or man-made features are protected and may not be disturbed or removed.

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Letterboxing is in violation of the above just like geocaching is (no matter how you slice it - and the electronic devices portion is moot at this point) because the letterbox or geocache disturb the parks (wildlife, plant life, driftwood, artifacts, and any other natural or man-made features) just by being there.

And my assumption, although it could be wrong, is that you have not asked permission from the rangers or that they are aware of the presence of the letterboxes.

True, they are unaware of the boxes. But I'll take the loophole, which I still consider valid, until the rules are changed or they pull my boxes. Using natural recesses in rocks or trees or even man-made object does not disturb wildlife. A point could be made that perhaps a squirrel *might* have made a home in a tree recess or something, but then again why wasn't a nest or any sign of the animal already there? Is moving a leaf disturbing the wildlife? Is simply walking down the established trail disturbing wildlife? Well, yeah it is. The very presence of humans out there disturbs the nature and animals.
I placed my boxes specifically to have the least possible impact on the environment, including the animals that call that park home. This series was created for newbies and kids. They are easy boxes to get, right next to or on the trail.
Obviously people are going to respond to this post differently, but I can rest my mind knowing that the boxes were respectfully planted, and also that what the rangers don't know about won't bother them. If they confront me on it, my contact info is in the box, then I'll address it with them then or simply yank my boxes. Or even replant the boxes again in different places and not post the clues.
My only point is that I would please request that no one purposefully alert the rangers to them. I can handle the consequences if, or when, they arise.

Mark

The part I am confused about is this statement by Check the Rules.

"It sounds like geocachers have already made an unfavorable impression on the regulators of the park."

Correct me if I am wrong, but there is a cache that theYargo folks approved and when I personally spoke with the Ranger who approved it he seemed to be quite happy with the geocachers that visit Yargo.

BTW..I am not going to tell anyone.

It seems to me that the prohibition mentioned in the link above is directed towards metal detectors, not GPSRs. Geocaches aren't "treasure", they're gamepieces. If one wanted to be AC about the use of electronic devices in the park, we'd best park our cars at the entrance as they all have computers. (Well, maybe not a certain Land Rover. )

A quick look at letterboxes in Georgia reveals that more then one State Park is impacted.

I won't rat anyone out, but I say the letterboxes should be removed. There's no appreciable difference between the environmental impact of letterboxes and geocaches. If/When discovered, it'll just set both of our hobbies back.

Rebel said: "but I say the letterboxes should be removed. There's no appreciable difference between the environmental impact of letterboxes and geocaches. If/When discovered, it'll just set both of our hobbies back."


Well, I did a little thinking and researching over the weekend on my boxes at Yargo. I looked up the caches at Yargo and I can appreciate the geo position a little more now that I see what the caches are. One cache is a virtual cache, which is of course acceptable. The other is a cache that requires you to ask a ranger for the thing! Coming from that point of view, planting boxes might have been seen as taboo b/c no rangers were involved or something. Asking the ranger for the thing doesn't seem very exciting to me, but whatever.
But the fact that the ranger knows what a geocache is, and in fact hands them over to seekers of that cache, solidifies my belief that my letterboxes will not reflect poorly on geocaching in any way since...
1. It is clearly labeled a letterbox.
2. It has my contact info in it.
3. It hardly resembles a cache at all.
I feel confident that the ranger would be able to discern that this was in fact not a geocache, and therefore not take any action against cachers or the established caches in Yargo.

Also, I do think there is a difference in impacts of letterboxing (when done correctly and with care as the ones in Yargo are) and geocaching on the environment. In the caching FAQ, it says that "A GPS unit is a electronic device that can determine your approximate location (within around 6-20 feet) on the planet." If a cache is placed in a sensitive area, this 6-20 feet could be bad news for fauna. If it is placed with that 6-20 feet taken into consideration, which I'm sure is the case for the most part, then it would no problem.
With my letterboxes, there isn't any ambiguity at all in the directions. You have compass coordinates, landmarks, and exact pace counts. If you can't find it then, then you are in the wrong place and I can't do anything about that beyond the clues I give.
Well anyway, I'm glad that the geocachers are involved with the rangers, I'm glad that cachers are concerned enough about the impact of the environment to address the issue, and I'm glad GA has a strong caching community. I just want to have fun too, but through responsible letterboxes.
Thanks for listening,
Mark

Mark,

I still disagree with your position, and not just because I'm trying to be ornery. It sounds like you're trying to justify the existence of these letterboxes when you realize they probably shouldn't be there. (Just ask my wife, I can justify having or buying anything I want - I'm an expert at it).

As you noted, the rangers at Yargo were aware of the caches placed, but you also make it clear that they are unaware of the letterboxes. If one of them is found, and it TPTB expect no more caches to be located out there, I'm sure it will reflect on the geocaching community since they know what caches are and may not be familiar with letterboxes.

You state that the letterbox is clearly marked, has your contact information in it, and hardly resembles a cache at all. The first two items are pretty standard for caches - they should be labeled and have the placer's information included. However, I can't say that any particular item can ever resemble a cache. I've seen not only ammo cans, Tupperware and Altoids tins, but also fake stumps and rocks, bits of random "ground cover", etc. Many caches don't particularly *look* like caches - they are only meant to be found by the people who are looking for them.

Yes, the method of finding a letterbox may differ, and as you say, the ability to zero in on a letterbox may be more exact than by someone using a GPS to find a cache, but both require someone to look for something that is hidden from the general population, and may cause people to damage vegetation while searching.

I expect that if found, the rangers will assume that a cacher placed the boxes there, whether it's labeled LETTERBOX or GEOCACHE.

I guess the best we can hope for is that the letterboxes are never discovered.

S-4-C

Asking the ranger for the "thing" may not seem exciting, but finding the combination to open it can be quite a challenge.

At first geocaches were outright banned from GA state parks. The rules are the rules and we follow them. The parks have been very pleased with us and I know of two that are open to the idea of a "box in the woods." Coming from an outright ban to where we are now has been a long, hard, three year long road.

I've seen letterboxes. I know how they work. Many caches I've found, and couple I've placed, are smaller than the average letterbox. The environment impact is quite similar.

Instead of arguing, how about joining us at a meeting? We're not so bad. Well, most of us. Our next meeting is this Saturday in Rome. I hope you come and get to know us.

Just a short reminder

State Park Rangers have been known to read the public forums here. Plus I have been trying to convince one of the Rangers to join GGA. If he ever does, he would be able to read the private forums.

Yeah, I agree with the "let's not argue". I can appreciate where you guys are coming from as far as following the rules and being responsible for environmental impact. But the boxes are there and I'm not going to pull them. If they get pulled, then they get pulled and I'll deal with it. If not, then fine too.

If they are pulled and I'm contacted by Mr. Ranger, rest assured I will tell him in very specific terms that I have nothing to do with geocaching, accepting all the blame on my own.

Thanks for the invite to the meeting.

If you're ever out at Yargo, go by and check out the boxes and their locations. If you would like to contact me about them, you can via the contact the placer function provided in my clues.

Mark

quote:

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Originally posted by check the rules:
Using natural recesses in rocks or trees or even man-made object does not disturb wildlife. A point could be made that perhaps a squirrel *might* have made a home in a tree recess or something, but then again why wasn't a nest or any sign of the animal already there? Is moving a leaf disturbing the wildlife? Is simply walking down the established trail disturbing wildlife?

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While I think you're on dangerous ground here, I have to agree with this reasoning, it's one of the biggest problems we have with the regulatory agencies that manage our parks.

We can't have anyone putting a film can in the wilderness because it might harm the wildlife ... but we can build a bloody great concrete DAM right in the middle of it. We can invite George Lucas to build his office building in it. We can even invite logging companies to come right in and clear-cut huge sections of it and spend the profits to build a luxury lodge in the middle of it. *sigh* ...

As others have said, the biggest risk here is that someone will find the letterboxes and think they're geocaches, or figure they're just a spinoff of the Geocaching hobby (instead of the reverse, which is closer to the truth). The old theory that "It's easier to apologize than get permission" has gotten us in hot water before.

Scott

Had an interesting chat with my son tonite. He was at Yargo today and was talking with the Ranger in the office and noticed the Geocache box on the desk. He got into a conversation with the Ranger about cachin', cause he knows I'm into it. My son is not an avid cacher, but I'm trying to remedy that. The Ranger DOES know about the letterboxes in the park. He has visited 2 of them, but said he couldn't find the 'other' two, yet? Are there 4 of 'em in there?
My son also found a letterbox 'by the bridge' by accident, and didn't even know what he had found. That started it all, and that's why he called me. He thought he found a geocache (sans GPS). The Ranger said he doesn't mind any of them (letterboxes or caches) in the park IF he knows about them beforehand and approves their location.
My question: Why are the letterboxes still permitted, even tho they didn't have prior permission, but not caches?
I'll see if I can get any more info out of him.

You might be interested to know the Head Ranger at Yargo, use to be the head Ranger at Tallulah Gorge State Park. He was the head Ranger there when I asked for permission to place my geocache there. He seems to be easier on geocaches than the higher ups in the State Park system. Which is why my geocache is in the park not the office. So I am not surprised he is easier on Letterboxes and most likely hasn't mentioned them to the higher ups.