For What It's Worth

First, let me say that I am not talking about any particular geocacher.
Second, let me say that if I receive any nasty emails I will copy & paste them into this thread.  So if you have a reply/comment, make it here.

When I'm trying to explain Geocaching to someone, part of the description is that it is a great way to learn about beautiful, out of the way places like Stump Barron,
Or cool/unusual things to see like Jesse the Baptist, or the Aspen Knight or the Famous Fowl or an old cemetery or a historic sight or just a beautiful view,
Or good hiking or biking trails,
Or to turn a "boring hike" into a "treasure hunt" for a youngster,
Or even little hidden city parks that only the locals know about.

So now, on the few occasions that I can get my husband to geocache with me, it seems like we always end up at some lame, ugly place. And of course he always asks "What was I supposed to see here?"  "Why did they put a cache here?" And I lie and say "I don't know."

I found this statement in the profile of a SC geocacher with 300+ finds. And I thought, "YES!", "ME TOO!"

BTW, I'm rapidly losing my interest in tupperware containers tossed under bushes in nondescript parks and 35mm film containers hidden in rubble. (I fell prey to hiding that type of cache in my early caching career, but have long since archived anything that resembled that remark.)

My current rule of thumb for hiding a cache is "Will a foreign tourist geocacher have fond memories of this cache?"

I like that rule of thumb.

I couldn't agree more, Penny! I too, have been to the lame caches. Unfortunately there's no way of knowing ahead of time if the cache is going to be memorable or a loser. And I imagine there will always be the good-intentioned hider that will think his cache out by the dumpster behind the Piggly Wiggly will just cause every geocacher to find it to stand slack-jawed at the spectacle. That's all I can do is chalk that kind of find up to experience (and another smiley face) and hope that the next find will be better. As more and more cachers are joining the sport, and the "good" places to hide caches are getting crowded, I expect that the number of boring caches will only increase

Sounds good Penny. I kinda go by "Would I enjoy being here even if there were no cache?" as a general rule of thumb. Works for me pretty well.

See ya on the hunt!

I agree with all of the above, and hope that the majority of my caches are worthy. I will not knowingly go after a lame cache.

However, playing the devil's advocate.......

I do think there is a place for lame caches (besides in the dumpster). For a newbie geocacher or family, just the thrill of discovery is pretty special. For them just finding that the GPS really did work and that they really did find that I-Can't-Believe-It's-Not-Butter container under the bush is pretty cool. So for that reason I think there is still some modicum of value attached to lame caches.

At least I use that as justification for maintaining a couple myself.

~erik~

Well let me make the case for the "tupperware containers tossed under bushes in nondescript parks". This may seem strange coming from someone who has done very few of any type of drive by and always tries to have something interesting and/or unusual in the cache area.

But when I started geocaching was only 4 months old, and geocaching.com was 1 month old. There was only about 9 caches in Georgia. I didn’t have anyone to tell what the idea was. What appealed to me was the fact someone could "give" me a set of numbers, and I could put those same numbers in a pocket-sized device and go to the exact spot they were at. I know that I am at the same spot because I find a container there.

For a "drive by" cache it is rare if I will go more than a couple of miles out of my way to hunt. Whereas I went 170 miles just to do "Rocktown", I don’t know how many miles I drove to do "Starhopping". But when I am close to a cache even a "tupperware containers tossed under bushes in a nondescript park" I will go do it. In all my cache hunts I have only found one cache (a virtual) that I was disappointed in, luckily it was 0 miles out of my way. Now while I like caches where I have to count the number of days to find it, there are people that like to see how many caches they can find a day. So there is a place for simple easy to find caches.

But I hope that people keep hiding ones in cool locations.

I repent! I repent! Not attempting to be sacreligous here in that comment, but I too have been guilty as a newbie of rushing out to hide what I now consider "lame" caches, but I'll jump on a lame one to claim a find!

After last week's "Iron Horse" and "Rock Town", I came away dazzled by those 2 locations and have vowed to place out only a theme-specific cache in a general area or a general cache in a spectacular area...My cuz placed his first cache in a oooh,ahhh spot with "Red Wine Cache" and got lots of applause. Giving them more thought and design certainly would make a cachesite more appealing than a "quick easy find, thanks for the smiley" kind of cache.

Team Happyspider

Of the four I have hidden so far, one WOULD fall in the lame category. With so many wide-open places that are void of caches, I can be very creative in my placements.

The region from Macon to Savannah only contains about a dozen caches, and a handful of cachers. It is going to take the unusual, interesting and cool caches to lure the "city folk" from the more cache rich environment…

Thank you for making me think a little more creatively.

BTW, my 1st post to GGA after several months of lurking.

Bob ~
Early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese...
Isn't the best way to save face to keep the lower part shut?...Stephen Wright

I have hidden fun and I have hidden Lame. The Lunch Break Caches are not in the most exciting places. Most of them are pretty Lame, But they are designed for a specific purpose. A Quick "fix" for the cubicle resident. It doesn't purport to be anything else.

I do agree with you Penny. I have actually done a lot less caching recently. I just can't find myself waking up at the crack of dawn driving to an area to do a bunch of caches and not really get anything but a nice view of the back of the cars in front of me. I used to be guilty of "Batch Caching" and probably will do so occasionally. But I now prefer to do a few more scenic caches that I can let D-A-P run and to get away from the crowds and traffic. Maybe when the weather gets cooler, I'll get out to do some of the urban caches here around Alpharetta during lunch. But right now my lunches (when I have a car)are spent doing errands and meetings.

But It is basically the nature of caching. Not all caches appeal to all cachers. After visiting some of the more spectacular caches, your expectations are raised. So, The longer you cache the more selective you become of the caches you visit. You find the type of caches that you enjoy and feel are worthy of your time and energy. It is just inevitable. I remember my first real disappointment in a cache. It was a gladware container behind a hospital kind of tossed down an embankment loaded with trash, literally. I thought to myself, "I just drove 90 miles to find this!". But, It was the luck of the draw and it was early on in caching history when there wasn't very many caches. So I understand the frustration.

I believe we have had this discussion before. I think it was on the other board. I'll see if I can find it.

Cache on Penny!

There are good points in all of these responses. I think there is a place for these quick and easy caches, and I go after some of them. I hunt them when: 1. I'm on a road trip and need a 'fix', and 2. When my Sig Other is with me. She is somewhat disabled and can't really go after the others. Have to be very selective when she goes.
Yes, there are lame ones out there, but it's just luck of the draw as to what we find. There are some cool drive-bys out there that we have enjoyed.

"Give to a pig when it grunts and a child when it cries, and you'll have a fine pig and a bad child." -Proverb

quote:

---

Originally posted by AllenLacy:
In all my cache hunts I have only found one cache (a virtual) that I was disappointed in, luckily it was 0 miles out of my way. 
<snip>
 So there is a place for simple easy to find caches.
 
But I hope that people keep hiding ones in cool locations.

---

I think I didn't make my definition of "lame" clear. "Lame" does not equal "Easy". I certainly agree that there is a need for easy caches. I wouldn't want to spend 1/2 a day or make several trips for every single cache.


Examples of caches I thought were lame (couldn't believe my eyes)
*at the bottom of an embankment behind a construction site
*under a bridge (not a pretty bridge over a creek in the woods, a regular road bridge)
*on the embankment of an Interstate overpass
*in the middle of a large open lot in an industrial area
*beside the parking lot of a large grocery store (several of those)
(These examples come from 3 different states, so please, no one should be thinking "that sounds like....")
And like Aksor+Raskol said, I couldn't tell until I got there that it was going to be that way. And yes, I still signed the log, made my trade and gladly added the smiley to my total. But it's makes it harder for me to convince myself that it's "not about the numbers".

And while I'm back on my soapbox,
I think "theme" caches fall into another category all together. You know from the cache page that it is a theme cache, like Slayerette's Lunchtime caches. So you have a better idea of what to expect and if you don't like it, then don't go.
For example my Travel Bug Hotel/Library is in the woods near a gas station. Nothing special to see there. But I chose the location because it is on the Interstate at the exit for the Savannah Airport. So it is easily accessible to both drivers and fliers and it has a safe, well lit place to park.
Most of my Trail Dog caches are pretty easy. But my goal wasn't to make a challenging cache. My goal was to let people know about some of the trails in the area for hiking with dogs. (Hiking trails in this area are few & far between.) But again, the cache page lets you know what to expect and the purpose of the cache.

By-the-way, I'm working on finding 3 mystery caches that require I find 19 other multi-micro caches before I can find the mystery caches! This is FUN


[This message was edited by Penny & Chaos on October 07, 2003 at 10:52 AM.]

I understand the lameness issues and feel for ya. Where in the Metro Atlanta area we have a plethora of caches to choose from, you really don't in your area. Since you have pretty much cleared your area, You have to drive a good distance to do some cachin'. So it can be extremely disappointing to head out to do a day of caching and end up behind Grocery stores and industrial parks! It really is hit and miss. I have to say I have visited a couple of yours and am never disappointed.(Even the TBug depot-we need to talk about that one). After awhile you associate Caches to The cache hiders behind them. Erik's caches are always fun and occasionally educational, The Lacy's caches always have a beautiful hike and an equally beautiful view, Jerry Longs make you use your head, and Yours are always dog friendly unless otherwise noted.

It took me a while (2 and Half years) to finally step back and not go after every cache. I have always avoided the mountain caches because they took to long to do. But since quality not quantity are more to my liking now, those have my attention. Maybe I'll put some out for ya while I'm there.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Slayerette:
I have always avoided the mountain caches because they took to long to do. But since quality not quantity are more to my liking now, those have my attention. Maybe I'll put some out for ya while I'm there.

---

I LOVE those mountain caches! Like that 5 mile hike up Vineyard Mountain (I don't care what the sign says, it can't be only 1/2 mile to the top)

Heres one coming up. After reading all the above
I don't know if it is lame or what.
Second Annual GGA Challenge Event
You can get a smily just by going there, but it has to be on the right day ( 10/25/03 )
The park has 3 interesting things that I know of,
A big power line, a nature trail, and a bridge that goes no where. If you spend 12 bucks you can hunt 7 or 8 caches that may be hiden by devious hiders, and you may or may not get some prizes.
:king :thumb :sigsmile : :

quote:

---

Originally posted by johnnie:
The park has 3 interesting things that I know of,
A big power line, a nature trail, and a bridge that goes no where.

---

I've seen that bridge. It's really cool! I used it for a reverse cache... Suspension Bridges of the World

Nice park, nice trail. Exactly the kind of thing I was talking about that explains why I like geocaching. I would never have seen that park, trail or bridge if not for the geocache there.



[This message was edited by Penny & Chaos on October 07, 2003 at 03:29 PM.]

Since I'm still technically a newbie at this even though it's been almost a year since I've started, my two cents.

I've found about 25 caches now, most of them I would classify as the "more difficult" variety, either for mental or physical abuse or both. Unfortunatley, most of them are now archived. Like some of the others, you associate the cache with the hiders - mtn_mtn, erik, slayerette, and even Goss. Some could consider Goss's Insanity cache lame, but it's actually really cool.

I found my first micro the other day by choice; to this point, I have avoided them and prefer the off-trail or wood caches and haven't been disappointed by those so far. I'm working on Eclectic right now, and have had a blast doing it.

I would, like Penny, classify "lame" caches as those that are just tossed about carelessly. I won't do them, based on what my GPS tells me, even on a driveby.

I'll never go for quantity (hence why I'm at 25.. that, and no caching for me in ATL summers), I'll go for quality. I'll also go for continued mental abuse by those who really know how to hide caches. The lacy caches are next on my list for next month when I have lots of vacation. Can't wait to do those!

An exception: I've noticed Team PEZ has thrown out about 19,782 micros in my immediate area in the past few months. Those I just might do in a drive-by matter since they seem to be RIGHT THERE. Or, I might not, again based on what the GPS tells me. Based on logs though I don't think I'll be disappointed.

Anwyay, just some thoughts.

Living so far from the metro area, I guess I never really ran across any truely lame caches. Of course my first find was Rocky Mountain and I almost quit before finding my first one.
And yes, while it is true I spat many curses attached to the name "Lacy" as I hauled my slightly oversized rear end up Cold Mountain, I have to admit that in addition to a view, the thrill of the hunt, or some neat prizes, there is also a lot of reward to be gained from actually surviving a truely challenging cache.
I admit I seem to have been spared from the junkie status of a true addict. I was never one to go too many miles out of the way or spend more than a few minutes to get a drive by, but I have hit one or two that were either on the way or in the adjacent lot to where I was working.
I have seen one or two that bordered on the title of "lame", in that I can see how that might interest someone else, but it didn't interest me. What can you do? Just keep on cachin'. For every semi lame cache I have found, I would venture to guess I found at least six that were worth twice the effort to get to them.

Oh, and about the Lacy's Cold Mountain? Revenge is not only best served "cold", but can be a "sweet bread" too.

I think there has been alot of good comments on this subject.
I can say I agree with one comment...then I agree with another.
I especially agree with Erik that newbies many times need easy caches that seem lame to us and even harder ones that don't really have a view still seem "great" to them.
And Allen has a point about when I first got a GPS and went to the coords, I was amazed at the fact that there was a container nearby. I didn't care what kind of container it was or what was in it...just that I found it.
I guess the problem is: How do you know a lame from a no-lame?
Like others, I have struggled with planning out a day of caching to end up doing some caches that were lame or just posted incorrectly.
I believe it is just something we go through in our process of "maturing" as cachers. This doesn't mean it doesn't bother us, but just that we have different wants and needs. We begin forming "standards" for what we see as having a good cache hunt.
I would say that probably the best thing to do is to start making notes (mental or on paper) about cache placers so you know who places them the way you like and who doesn't.
Some people avoid micros, others multis, just see what works for you and what doesn't.
I've even starting getting my feet a little wet at benchmarking. There is not alot of originality in placement (some are though), but you generally know what you are going for when you head out.
If geocaching.com will just get pocketqueries going for them then it will be easier to manage finds/hunts.

I believe that though many would not like it, a cache rating system would really help with this matter.
A cache rating could be set initially by the approver (should have best guess since they have done alot) and adjusted (or superseeded) by averaging of ratings entered by cachers when they log the cache.
If cachers are more of the type "I just want the smiley", then they could ignore the rating.
But for those who are looking for some really good ones that alot of others have enjoyed, then they could hit the higher rated caches.
I have seen somewhere on a cache a rating system "add-in" that could be imbedded in the HTML on a cache page. However, it depends on a service outside of geocaching.com so it is not well known.
I know the pitfall on this method is that some placers would get offended at low ratings and might turn people off to geocaching, but hey...overall the cache quality might go up since those who stay around will work at good placement.

Thanks for listening,
Kenneth

This cache in Charleston that I found last week has a cache rating link. It's a bit simplistic in only asking for an overall rating rather than seperate terrain and difficulty ratings. However it does have a free text area so you can send suggestions and make comments that you might not in your find log.

~erik~

I guess I wasn't that clear, I believe there is a need for "nondescript containers tossed under bushes in nondescript parks". I have actually found some caches directly behind a building. I have no problem with them. I think it is good when someone wants to try to find a cache and can see there are some very close to them. There may not be a cool place close. What I do is read the descriptions and unusually the logs. I mentally assign a level of interest for me based on how many of the things I like that it has. This determines how far I will go out of my way to hunt it(170 miles for Rocktown). I think reading the logs is the best way to see what others think of a cache.

It is a rare drive by that I will travel more than a few miles to hunt. But if there is one on the bank behind a store that is just a little out of my way to and from work. I will go for it. If it is in bad shape I will try to upgrade it, just like I have for some the “good” ones deep in the woods. As JoGPS said in groundspeak

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoGPS:
Every cache does not need to be the greatest that’s ever been placed

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by AllenLacy:

I think reading the logs is the best way to see what others think of a cache.

---

But then there is the cache owner who deleted my log and the logs of others because he thought that our comments would not inspire others to visit his cache.
I don't remember what I said in the log, but I know it wasn't anything rude or really critical because I would not post that kind of log.