I didn’t want to hijack the other thread, so I brought the post this to a new thread.

Slayerette made some comments in another thread that I disagreed with. So I wanted to start a new thread based on her comments.

Caching is often referred to an activity with no real rules. It’s just a get off the couch and get out side activity. However you want to participate is up to you. Just because you want to do it a different way does not make you a bad person or a cheat.

If someone one wants to skip parts of a multi, who does it hurt? The only person it can hurt is the cacher themselves because they missed something the cache owner wanted them to experience. They missed out on it, it’s their loss. No big deal. Why anybody else would be bothered by it does not make sense to me.
I think it is silly to skip parts of a multi. The cache owner wanted me to experience something about the journey, so I want to experience it. If someone wants to skip it though, what do I care? It does not matter to me one bit. Why would I care or judge them for that?

If someone were to take a helicopter to the top of a mountain instead of climbing it, they get the same view in the end, but they missed the journey and adventure. It’s their loss. Why would I care?

What should I do when I am out caching with Beldredge who rocks at puzzles and has the cords? Should I just stand aside and look at the cache and not sign it?
Is it cheating if I sign it? I helped find the hide! Does it make me a bad person if I sign it? Or does it just mean I missed out on the puzzle that the cache owner wanted me to experience, but I still got the cache?

I like to cache more than I like to sit at my computer and figure out puzzles. Puzzles often frustrate me. Caching usually relaxes me.

Secondly, let me know if it offends you if I do your puzzle via the short cut method. I respect a cache owners wishes. A smiley is not so important to me that I would offend anybody by doing a cache via the short cut method. I may think it is silly that you care, but I will respect your wishes none the less.

Personally, I feel that the puzzle should be solved. That said, it is sometimes easier said than done, and sometimes you're out with someone who has had more luck figuring out the puzzle. I generally at least try to get an idea what the puzzle was so that I can get an idea how to solve it, and/or ask a friend/the cache owner for a hint or something so that I can figure out *HOW* to solve it. However, I personally see nothing inherently wrong with occasionally finding a cache I personally didn't solve, because, as you put it, I *DID* help find the container. Perhaps it may cheapen the experience for me, but isn't that my problem? That said, when I do let someone else solve it, I usually ask how they solved it so that I can reproduce the solution myself.

This was a thought provoking question. The more I thought about it, the less sure of my answer I became. To me there's a scale of "puzzle cache purity" that goes something like this:

1) you solved puzzle completely on your own
2) you solved the puzzle with a hint from the owner
3) you solved the puzzle with a hint from a non-owner
4) you were in a group with the puzzle solver when the cache was found
5) the puzzle solver gave you the solution and you found it without them
6) you got the solution from someone other than the solver

To me, the value of your smiley decreases as you get lower in the list. But, at the moment, there's no such thing as a partial smiley. So all finders, regardless of the "purity" of the find, get full credit. I tend to think that's OK. I also think it's good etiquette to mention in your log where you fall on the scale. "Proud to say I solved this by myself!" or "I solved this with a hint from the CO." or "I hate puzzles and got these coordinates from somebody else."

For me, puzzle caches offer two highs. One when I figure out the puzzle and one when I find the cache. I'm more of a solo cacher so purity levels 4-6 haven't presented themselves. But I wouldn't delete someone's log for finding one of my puzzle caches without solving the puzzle. Give me a nice long log entry, leave the cache better than you found it, and you're a friend of mine. I hope you at least enjoyed the cache half of it.

This reminds me of when I was just a school kid. Me and some friends was just learning to
play cards. I don't think it was poker, but something on them lines for kids.
Anyway I was asked in a game one afternoon how I had 3 aces when there was
two already in play. I said what does it matter how I win, we are just playing for toothpicks
and it don't hurt anybody. It is just a game and I don't like being called a cheater.
I will play the way I want to play. I don't care what you think, but I am not a cheater,
I have not took anything of yours. I think I learned better as I grew up.

I find this approach works best for me.
“God, give me serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.

I tend to agree with both Johnnie and WakeboardLanier, in certain ways. Personally, I generally prefer to be able to say that I solved it myself, but I also don't think that I should be labelled a "cheater" if I was working with someone else to solve the puzzle, or was with someone else who had already solved the puzzle, or got a hint from someone else. I generally try to avoid not at least trying to solve the puzzle myself, but sometimes I just can't figure it out without a hand. No, I don't *HAVE* to find the cache, but I would rather be able to do so. The end result is that I occasionally seek guidance from someone else who has managed to find a solution. I do, however, generally try to avoid just getting the coords, because I do tend to agree that doing that is not within the spirit of the game.

Ah, puzzles - my bane, my nemesis, almost as bad as the dreaded micro in the woods.

Wakebordlanier put it well with the scale of purity. And at the same time if only #1 were acceptable there would be far, far fewer solves and finds. If we only had to go on our own knowledge & skills how far would we get?

I don't like having the answer handed to me. And still sometimes I do need a nudge. Thinking outside the box can go in many different directions and I'm not ashamed to admit that sometimes I'm at a complete loss on a puzzle. I'll give it the best I've got & then not ashamed to ask for a nudge. I don't want the answer, just some direction.

And to take a snippet from the other thread, Character is what you do when nobody is watching, and I prefer to do my best to do what I think is right - and at the same time the frustration level can only be eased with a nudge or two!

And I was not terribly disappointed when the closest cache to my home that I hadn't found yet - a puzzle - was taken off line. I just simply could not solve that one!

Personally, I don't care how people cache as long as it doesn't effect me or my caches.

But the day that stage skipper walks up to me and has the unmitigated gall to either compare their caching accomplishments to mine or crow how much better than me he/she is... I tend to judge. And they are not my peer.

And What about those caches that are used to fulfill a WRC requirement? Those are based on diff and terr ratings. Those ratings take into account all the stages... not just the final. So by not doing all the stages, is that cache really a 4.0 / 4.0... or more like a 2 / 2.5. That could mean the difference of whether someone gets a coin or not. Yeah, I think judging is what I'll do here too.

As for Puzzles... I don't care. I've been with people finding a puzzle cache when I haven't solved it... I've gotten help doing them from the cache owner or other cachers... I agree about the joy coming from solving it on my own, but that doesn't happen very often. I mainly get a nudge in the right direction, and then I usually solve it myself.

I have had a rough time with this whole concept over the years, but In the last couple of years I have come to accept it. Not all cachers have the same standards. Some are high, some are non existant. From what I see in Dr.Mole's post, I am alot like him. I don't care how other cachers play. I can only live by example, teach about the spirit of caching is about. In the grand scheme of things I can only control how I cache.

We have a cache that has been sitting in the north Georgia mountains for over five years. Because all that solved the puzzle have kept the secret to themselves, the cache has yet to be plundered by the short-cutters.

Back in 2004, two cachers teamed up to find the cache. One had solved the puzzle and the second joined him for the hike to the cache. The first cacher, having found the cache, signed the logbook and passed it on to the second. The second took the logbook and wrote a note which included the following: “I logged in, but until I solve the puzzle, or get jealous, I will not log this one as a "find”."

That may sound like the cacher was not interested in accumulating finds but, as I recall, at that time he was the highest rated cacher in Georgia in terms of finds. Unfortunately for the rest of us, the cacher dropped out of geocaching when he embarked on a year-long boat voyage. He named his boat “INTEGRITY”.

Some people get it; most of us don't.

WakeboardLanier, I agree with you. If you skip parts of a cache it cheapens the smiley. But, it is your smiley and experience to cheapen.

Johnnie, no disrespect, but I completely disagree with you. Your analogy is not accurate. If I cheat you in cards, or monopoly, or any other game, then by God, I cheated you. It does not matter if we are playing for toothpicks or $100 bills, I cheated you. Geocaching is not a “game” in the competition sense. It is an activity. There are no winners and losers.
If I take a short cut to a puzzle cache you put out how did I cheat you? I believe there is a huge difference between the two scenarios.

Owl, I don’t see how you can judge someone’s integrity because they chose to take a short cut to a cache. I don’t see how you can judge anything about anybody based on how they cache. You know nothing about them or their circumstances or who they are. All you know is that they wanted to do some caching. That’s what we are really in it for isn’t it? I did not start caching because I thought there were some really cool puzzles to do here.

Owl, I know from following these forums that it bothers you if short cutters (let’s not call them cheaters) do your puzzles. I have noted this and would not log one of your puzzle caches if I were out with somebody who did your puzzle and cache. That being said, if I did not know this about you, it would not bother me to sign the log if I was in that circumstance. (God knows I will never solve your puzzles on my own……) Also, as a result of me signing the log under this condition it would not bother me if you subsequently deleted my smiley. It really does not matter. I cache to find caches, not to collect smileys. So does this mean I don’t have integrity, or does it mean I play the game differently than you and like to find caches that are hidden at coordinates and gets me out and about?

I named my boat "Comfortably numb". Some people get it, most don’t care about it.

I'm enjoying this discussion. Here's my $.02, which nobody asked for:

I think that there's a difference between using short cuts on puzzles and "cheating." I have found puzzle caches in groups where everyone had not solved the puzzle, although usually everyone had partially solved it, contributed to the solution, or at least had an idea of how to solve it. I have found puzzle caches that I only solved with the help of the owner. (Thanks, Owl!) I've found puzzle caches that I only solved with hints from others. I've found puzzle caches when I couldn't completely solve the puzzle, but could figure out enough from the puzzle, description, and hints to find the cache. I once found a puzzle cache by accident when I was looking for another cache. I signed the log and claimed a find. I didn't ask the owner - I was a pretty new cacher at the time, and that didn't occur to me - but I told him about it later and he thought it was pretty funny. In my opinion, nothing is wrong with any of this. In some cases, luck and guessing were involved, but luck and guessing are a big part of caching, anyway.

And I have found multis without finding all the stages - but only when I could figure out the "short cut" on my own. In one case, I knew exactly where the third stage of a four-part multi was from the description and hints, but I still looked for stage two for half an hour. I figured I gave it my best shot and when on and did the rest of the cache. People have done the same with my multis. I mostly just think that they're pretty smart for figuring out where the final is without exact coords.

But then - there's a multi in the Atlanta area on which I can't find stage two, even after several visits. I called a friend for a hint, and without my asking he told me exactly where the final was. (It was a spot that could be described in a few words.) I still haven't "found" that cache, but I hope to someday - I'm going to keep looking for stage two.

Wow, I didn't realize I had walked into a shooting gallery. I thought I had made a positive comment.

First, I don't mind people finding short cuts to solutions to our puzzle caches. If you had checked, you would have found that we give hints, however strong they need to be, to anyone that asks. In most cases, we will give you the coords if you ask. There are a few caches that we do not give hints for and we never give hints before there is a first to find. In short, we try to encourage people to find our caches.

What does bother both me and Hannah is those people that get coords from their buddies, go get the cache, and then post a log congratulating themselves on how they solved the puzzle. When it's our cache they are crowing about, I get highly offended.

And I was not judging anyone except for our friend who always demonstrated integrity in everything he did.

I'm enjoying the discussion too.

As a cache reviewer I can go back and retrieve the final stage coords for a multi or mystery cache from it's original submission. I couldn't look myself in the mirror if I ever did that to help me find a cache though. I even get aggravated when people submit puzzle caches and tell me in a "note to reviewer" how to solve it. That means I have to wait for Alzheimers before I can go back and work the puzzle.

However, there have been a few puzzle caches I could not solve that I found through brute force. One was a cache of Owl's, and I freely admit to figuring out roughly where it should be and then going the "blind squirrel hunting an acorn" route to look at all the places I'd hide a cache before uncovering Owl's.

The first finder of my best and most painful puzzle cache did it that way too, but he logged his find in the log book to needle the second finder, did not log it online. I had to smile at that.

~erik~

'cheat' –verb (used with object)

1. to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.
2. to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.
3. to elude; deprive of something expected.

Hi, my name is joebids and I'm a cheater.

Well with that said, I too am enjoying these lively discussions. Awhile back I wrote an article for the GGA newsletter along similar lines called 'Playing the Game'. Kind of a people will play the the way they want to article.

I think the 3rd definition above pertains to this subject well.

If I find the final of a multi via a shortcut, did I cheat someone? Myself perhaps? If I find the final from a puzzle cache because the person I was caching with had the solve and I did not, did I cheat someone? Myself perhaps?

I know, I know, I cheated myself out of something the cache designer had in mind. That something else might have been the thrill of seeing what was at stage two or the fun of solving the puzzle. But, did I cheat the cache owner out of the thrill of seeing where someone figured out and found their puzzle cache? Maybe.

How about the log entry itself? Do I cheat the creator of a cleverly designed cache of the thrill of my solve and/or find by a log entry that simply says: "Thanks"? Probably.

If I cache with someone who happens to have a puzzle solve of one on our 'run' and I enjoy the company of that someone(s) I'm with and I still help find the cache, then I don't feel I have cheated myself of anything.

One evening 20 of us set out to find a night cache 3 miles deep in the woods. Did I get
cheated by those around me who helped spot the various clues in the woods? Heck no! I won because I was with folks I enjoyed being with which inclucded one of the cache owners' Allen Lacy who led into the woods after the elusive 'Snipe'. Plus I logged a 'find' even though I didn't spot every clue nor did I spy the final first. And I still feel I have integrity.

Yea, this topic gets brought up from time to time and it gets you thinking about how serious to take things in this activity. Cachers and cache owners alike can be perceived many different way.

Question is, can you live with how you and others play?

Owl, I apologize for seeming to have taken aim on you. That was not my intent. My intent was to push my point forward.

I do know that you give hints and are very helpful with your puzzles; I was not trying to imply you didn’t. I know your caches and puzzles are well regarded and folks really enjoy them. I have heard folks talk with reverence about your puzzles.

I want to make a point on this comment you made though:
“What does bother both me and Hannah is those people that get coords from their buddies, go get the cache, and then post a log congratulating themselves on how they solved the puzzle. When it's our cache they are crowing about, I get highly offended.”
I agree with you and understand how it can offend you if I claimed I figured it out all on my own and in reality had not even looked at. No problems there. I would contend though that some folks are afraid to admit they did not solve it on their own though, and therefore would skirt the issue, and thus log something like “great puzzle, TFTC”. I don’t mean to single out Owl puzzle caches here. It could be any puzzle cache by any cache owner. We all read the logs and watch good puzzles.

To that point; this is what bothers me, and why I started this thread to begin with:
If I logged a puzzle cache that I did not figure out on my own, and even if I state in the log I had help, or I stated that somebody gave me the coords, the feeling that I get from this community is that I would be judged in an unfavorable manner, labeled a cheat, a person of low integrity, a bottom dweller, a scurvy dog, and low down no good yellow belly.

I just like to cache. I don’t want to spend time doing puzzles. Who am I hurting? Why should I be judged for this?

quote:

Question is, can you live with how you and others play?

I can live with how I play. I don't care how others play. I don't think others should care how I play. It bothers me to see others care about how others play......thus this thread....

quote:

Originally posted by Lakebum:
I would contend though that some folks are afraid to admit they did not solve it on their own though, and therefore would skirt the issue, and thus log something like “great puzzle, TFTC”.

This board has been interesting to watch the past couple of days!

Just to add my wooden nickle to the discussion: I own a few puzzle caches down here on the south side, some 1's, some 5's. On every puzzle page I have this disclaimer:
Please do not give away puzzle solutions or final coordinates without permission from the cache owner.
Logs to the most difficult puzzles often say "got help from XXXX" to solve the puzzle."
That's OK, tho it obviously doesn't comply with my intent. I still enjoy seeing people find the thing and watching who folks are working with. Maybe it's cheating, maybe not, but I'm still having fun watching it happen.

You 'guys' kill me ...

Glad I'm still in my Happy Place ...

WHO CARES?!

Where's the FUN!?

I'm a Happy Boy

I'm a Happy Boy - LIVE!

And a cover - with VIDEO!

I'm gonna find a few lamposts and ENJOY it!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: phat.bak,

Here's a somewhat related discussion, though about virtual caches, not puzzle caches.

~erik~

quote:

Originally posted by ~erik~:
Here's a somewhat related discussion, though about virtual caches, not puzzle caches.

~erik~

Did you

quote:

Compose a funny couch potato song. ?