Not sure if this is the best forum to mention this in, but I just wanted to let ya'all know that "mandatory additional logging requirements" for caches are no more.

Please see this link for more info.

If you've got a cache that had to be listed as a "mystery/puzzle cache" due to the addition of a mandatory additional logging requirement please edit the text to make it optional and get in touch with me. I'll be happy to change the listing to "traditional cache" if it's a single stage one so more people will see it in their pocket queries.

Just send me an e-mail with the GC???? number on the top right of your cache page.

Thanks!
erik - volunteer cache reviewer for Georgia
erik88L-R@geocachingadmin.com

Thanks for the heads-up, Erik. I was really steamed at first, but then read the whole thread. It appears the Fizzy/WRC, DeLorme, and county challenges are safe. It wasn't specified but I assume "Alphabet Soup" challenges will be as well. Please keep us updated.

Oh yeah...because there was not already enough angst in the forums over there!

No really that is fine news, but I am sure it will have ripples far and wide. We rarely did ALR caches, anyways.

Sad day.

We don't own an ALR cache, but if we did, we would archive it rather than water it down. Sad too, that this is probably the tip of the regulation iceberg. We've seen it coming in Geocaching.com for some time. Less freedom, more and more restriction. Puzzle caches are probably next thing to go and that is when we drop our premium membership. Perhaps geocaching.com is in some serious need of competition from a new, free-spirited website. Maybe cachesrequiringeffort.com ... hmmm, just doesn't have that ring to it, does it?

quote:

We make difficult caches even more so.

Sounds good to me. The problem with the ALR caches is that too many had goofy requirements that had nothing to do with the cache, or with geocaching.
Challenge caches that require people to find a cache in each county, on each page of the DeLorme Atlas, etc., are certainly not affected, as they don't have additional logging requirements. They have preliminary requirements that are very much geocaching related.
Keep the faith.
~erik~

I guess I think 'Old School'. What I miss is the way it USED to be ... a simple ammobox at the end of a scenic walk. Caches used to bring you to an interesting place that you normally wouldn't find on your own.
The sport has gotten so polluted with topsy-turvey, goofball, mini, jump-thru-hoops caches that it wouldn't hurt my feelings if most all of the cache categories were banned (even tho I have a few of each kind, that I would gladly archive).

2¢

quote:

Originally posted by ~erik~:
[QUOTE]The problem with the ALR caches is that too many had goofy requirements that had nothing to do with the cache, or with geocaching.

Obviously this hits everyone a little bit different. I see some sides that ask for the additional requirement, however, when I find a pretty well hidden container somewhere and am 'required' to email the owner the number of lights in the parking lot, that's the negative side I remember unfortunately.

Remember, there's something for everyone. And 6,670 of 'em are here in Georgia.

quote:

Originally posted by ~erik~:

quote:

We make difficult caches even more so.

Sounds good to me. The problem with the ALR caches is that too many had goofy requirements that had nothing to do with the cache, or with geocaching.
Challenge caches that require people to find a cache in each county, on each page of the DeLorme Atlas, etc., are certainly not affected, as they don't have additional logging requirements. They have preliminary requirements that are very much geocaching related.
Keep the faith.
~erik~

Well, that's our motto when we're hunting a cache!

Thanks Erik, phat.bak, and Joebids. We tend to skip over the goofy ones. We've never worn a pink dress or stripped down to our birthday suits in pusuit of a lame 1/1 (a 5/5 might make us reconsider) . We agree that silly things that have nothing to do with the cache won't be missed. Our question really is "where does it end?" We don't see new rules being created that give us more freedom, just more restriction. And hey, if someone wants to put on that pink dress and pose for their photo by that parking lot LP, we're not stopping them.

Anyway, all good points. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by phat.bak:
I guess I think 'Old School'. What I miss is the way it USED to be ... a simple ammobox at the end of a scenic walk. Caches used to bring you to an interesting place that you normally wouldn't find on your own.
The sport has gotten so polluted with topsy-turvey, goofball, mini, jump-thru-hoops caches that it wouldn't hurt my feelings if most all of the cache categories were banned (even tho I have a few of each kind, that I would gladly archive).

2¢

AMEN BROTHER!

I guess this makes it sooooo much easier for the ones who take shortcuts as it is.

Whatever. I'll do what I want anyway.

We understand how dumb some of the ALRs were, but now you can't require a cacher to pick up a bag of trash [see Peeples Lake (GC11KW1) by Bad Dawg] or require someone post a photo to prove they did a night cache at night.

The question of who really owns a geocache has now been answered. Maybe geocaching.com should offer an ammo can bailout.

phat.bak and Slayerette are hitting the bull’s eye.

When virtual caches got to the point of “log a stop sign” it was time for them to go too. Sacrificing the creative caches in this group was very disappointing.

I think GC is just nipping this in the bud and I hate to see the good ALR caches going with it. I believe this action is in response to the growing DBG (Data Base Gang) battle, a product of the “numbers” cachers. For me putting out a multi or puzzle cache seems pointless after the FTFer, it tends to show up in the “Data Base“ and turns into a traditional cache.

I took a working vacation last week and so didn't read forums here or on groundspeak. Yesterday I took time to read and saw where ALR had become ALS (Addition Logging Suggestions), I thought while not exactly good, it wasn't terrible.

The groundspeak thread seem to say this change would not impact multicaches, puzzle caches, or challenge caches. However I heard through the geo-grapevine, that a owner of a puzzle cache noticed someone logging the geocache without solving the puzzle, the owner deleted the log as per the current guildlines

quote:

The responsibility of your listing includes quality control of posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements.

The finder appealed to contact at geocaching.com and TPTB restored the deleted found log and sent an email to owner telling him that if the physical logbook is signed no matter how, the found log can not be deleted.

If this is true that appears to mean that all stages of a multiple are optional, solving puzzles are optional, doing all the requirements of challenge are optional, just get someone to give you the final coords or even bring you the logbook and sign it.

Now I haven't directly talked with the owner, and maybe I misunderstood what happened. But if it is true that geocaching.com has become the log police and enforces the rule "If the physical logbook is signed by any method, the found log cannot be delete", then geocaching.com has made major change in their view of geocaching.

Allen wrote:

quote:

Now I haven't directly talked with the owner, and maybe I misunderstood what happened. But if it is true that geocaching.com has become the log police and enforces the rule "If the physical logbook is signed by any method, the found log cannot be delete", then geocaching.com has made major change in their view of geocaching.

I can't speak for the customer service rep. at the contact at address, but the intent of the guideline change is to only impact the "ALR" caches.

If I had a puzzle cache and someone logged that they found it after finding the coords posted at cheaters.com I'd delete it, and I suspect I'd be backed up in that decision. If someone found it and e-mailed me privately to say that they were not able to solve the puzzle as designed but found a clever workaround that lead them to the cache it wouldn't bother me in the least. More power to them.

I suppose one gray area might be the 5 star terrain caches that people have logged without actually conquering the terrain. An example would be one person climbing to the cache, but tossing it down to the others in the group. Some cache owners have asked that photos be posted of the finder at the cache to validate the find. That is an additional logging requirement that would now not be allowed, but hopefully the cache owner can come up with a solution, like fastening the log book to the container and the container to a tree.

The first cache that I've seen suffer such unintended consequences is Trez's E.R.I.K. cache which is too small to hold a log book, so the log book was at the first stage and code word at the final stage. I'm sure Trez will find an evil workaround, but if it were mine I'd post the coords of the teeny tiny cache, but have it contain coords of the final stage with the log. You still have to find both, and no "ALR" code word is required.

Hopefully there are similar solutions to other caches affected by the change from mandatory additional logging requirements to optional additional logging activities, or whatever you'd like to call them.

~erik~

Edited to add that the guidelines quote Allen has above is from the section on granfathered cache types, and refers to virtual cache find verification, not other caches. However I have posed the question/concern to groundspeak as it is certainly a valid one regardless.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ~erik~,

quote:

the guidelines quote Allen has above is from the section on granfathered cache types, and refers to virtual cache find verification, not other caches

Not it's not. On the offical Cache Listing Requirements / Guidelines under "Guidelines that Apply to all Cache Types" there is a section titled "Cache Maintenance" the first four paragraphs say

quote:

The cache owner will assume all responsibility of their cache listings.

The responsibility of your listing includes quality control of posts to the cache page. Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements.

As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache (missing, damaged, wet, etc.). You may temporarily disable your cache to let others know not to hunt for it until you have a chance to fix the problem. This feature is to allow you a reasonable time – normally a few weeks – in which to arrange a visit to your cache. In the event that a cache is not being properly maintained, or has been temporarily disabled for an extended period of time, we may archive the listing.

It may be difficult to fulfill your maintenance obligations if you place a cache while traveling on vacation or otherwise outside of your normal caching area. These caches may not be published unless you are able to demonstrate an acceptable maintenance plan. It is not uncommon for caches to go missing, areas to be cleared, trails to be blocked or closed, objects used for multi-cache or puzzles to be moved or removed, etc. Your maintenance plan must allow for a quick response to reported problems.

Since it is in the section "Guidelines that Apply to all Cache Types" it seems obvious the guideline is suppose to apply to all geocaches, virtual and physical, plus it specifically mentions multi-cache and puzzles.

Yes, Allen, that is correct. As they used to yell at my son when at bat in T-ball: "good eye, good eye".

So I guess your question still boils down to what constitutes a bogus log or one not meeting the stated requirements? Playing the devil's advocate here, though, I'll bet you 99% of mystery and multistage cache pages don't state that you have to solve a puzzle or have to do all the stages. It's implied by the cache type, but it's rare that cache owner's will go beyond that.

~erik~

Well I noticed the guidelines now say "Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed." It doesn't mention getting to the geocache much less solving a puzzle or finding all stages of a multi.

quote:

Well I noticed the guidelines now say "Geocaches can be logged online as Found once the physical log has been signed." It doesn't mention getting to the geocache much less solving a puzzle or finding all stages of a multi.

I guess one could argue that if puzzle or multi is such that people can find the cache without completing it, then the puzzle or multi isn't robust enough. That doesn't address cheaters though, does it?

The counter argument is that it's not a competition and cheaters only cheat themselves. I don't completely buy that either.

~erik~

quote:

Originally posted by AllenLacy:
....
The finder appealed to contact at geocaching.com and TPTB restored the deleted found log and sent an email to owner telling him that if the physical logbook is signed no matter how, the found log can not be deleted.
...

The day 'TPTB' reinstates a log on MY Cache that I deleted (for whatever reason), and not allow me to delete it again - is the day all of my caches will be archived.
The luster is already tarnished for me, and that would just about push me over the edge to rogue anarchism.

quote:

Originally posted by phat.bak:
...The day 'TPTB' reinstates a log on MY Cache that I deleted (for whatever reason), and not allow me to delete it again - is the day all of my caches will be archived.

Hmmmmm, would 'TPTB' allow you to delete those that log your cache(s) after you archive them or it?