Replicated from the GGA EZBoard:

mtn man
and puppymonster
(10/27/01 10:34:13 pm)
USDA Forest Service Geocaching Policy in GA

I have received another e-mail from the USDA Forest Service (FS). I asked for permission to place the Raven Cliffs First Cache. They said yes. I placed the cache, but they have been discussing Geocaching. The have changed their position on Geocaching somewhat. There is good news and bad news.

The bad news is that they have declared that Wilderness Areas are now off limits for physical Geocaches. In GA that would include my beloved Raven Cliffs Wilderness (which extends from the Cliffs trailhead area all the way west to Neel's Gap, a huge area), the Cohutta Wilderness, the Brasstown Bald Wilderness, the Tray Mountain Wilderness, the Nantahala Wilderness, the Ellicott Rock Wilderness, and the Rich Mountain Wilderness. I do not know about the Cooper Creek Scenic Area and the Anna Ruby Falls Scenic Area, but I would bet that caches there would be removed.

The good news is that there are thousands of acres of National Forest in Georgia that are still wide open and begging for caches. I am VERY happy to see the FS has tried to grasp the concept of Geocaching in a positive way.

I understand closing the Wilderness Areas. The "Class IV Wilderness" is a highly regulated area to keep things as natural as possible. The trail work I have done at Raven Cliffs and a little in the Cohuttas has all been done by hand. Volunteers and Rangers work with hand tools to keep the trails clear. You have to get a special permit to bring in a chainsaw in the case of tornado like blow downs on trails. You will not hear much noise in Raven Cliffs, especially if you backpack and camp more than half way to the end.

I am pasting his message below. I think that this can be a good thing. I think they see that we are out to have fun, and hey, we even clean up as we go! There are some caches that will have to be moved, and mine is one of them. I have until November 11. I will move it Sunday, November 5. If you want to look for it, you must do it soon. I am asking them if I can move it to a new place close by up near the AT. I still want this cache to overlook my beloved Raven Cliffs! I will update this thread as I get additional information.


*****Paste from Ranger's e-mail*****************
Greg,
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but upon further deliberation I have to ask you to remove the "Raven Cliffs First Cache" that you have placed in the Raven Cliffs Wilderness. I know how excited you were to get this set up, but I was premature in giving you permission to do this and I apologize. I checked your initial request from a special uses standpoint, but didn't consider the possible impacts from a designated wilderness standpoint or the precedent this might set for other dispersed recreation uses of wilderness. A survey of the District Rangers on the Chattahoochee National Forest resulted in the unanimous agreement that geocaching is not an appropriate use of wilderness.

The Chattahoochee National Forest follows Forest Service Manual direction closely concerning the management of wilderness areas, which is based on the language and intent of the Wilderness Act. Wilderness management emphasizes such phrases as "maintain in a natural condition", "untrammelled by man", "pack in-pack out", "ecosystems are unaffected by human manipulation and influence", "protect and perpetuate wilderness character".........well, you get the picture. Although the first impression would be that a small ammo box hidden within a 10,000 acre wilderness would be a totally innocent act and cause no environmental harm, upon further thought this may not always be the case. With the increasing popularity of geocaching, I would anticipate your cache being searched by a significant number of people, which could easily result in eventually wearing a noticeable path from the Raven Cliffs Trail to the hiding place unless frequently moved.

Please make plans to remove your cache as soon as possible, with November 11 as a target date to complete this removal. If you need more time due to personal or work commitments, please call me to arrange an extension. We will be glad to work with you concerning placement of this cache in a suitable location outside the Wilderness. I think I am safe in saying that, with the exception of the designated wilderness areas, all other National Forest System lands on the Chattahoochee NF are suitable for geocaching, but to be sure please contact us when you have another proposed location.

Michael Gryson, the Chattooga District Ranger, will also be sending you a formal letter of notification to remove this cache.

Once again, I apologize for the premature go-ahead given to proceed with this particular cache location. I hate to discourage such a new and innovative dispersed recreation activity, but the proper management of wilderness takes precedence in this case. Please feel free to call me if you want to discuss this further or have any questions!

Blaine B.


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bent twigs
Unregistered User
(10/28/01 3:19:02 am)
Re: USDA Forest Service Geocaching Policy in GA

Ya know, if you hadn't done the "right" thing and asked permission first, the Raven Cliffs First Cache would've enjoyed a long life while introducing dozens of people to this exceptional area. Now as a result, not only does your cache have to be removed, but several others too and 131,503 additional acres of PUBLIC land are officially off limits.

I saw the actual area this cache was located in. The danger of enviromental damage was almost nonexistent. Had the ranger bothered to examine the container before deciding that the "risks" were too great, then he might've realized that he was letting his imagination run wild. He was worried about "wearing a noticeable path... to the hiding place"??? Raven Cliffs allows CAMPING!!! I passed by a group that had set up camp less than 500 feet from the cache location. They had 4 tents, a large smoky fire, packs and bags were hanging from every available tree and the mental picture I got as I walked by was of a junkyard. The limit on camping in Raven Cliffs is 15 days in one spot. Can you imagine the amount of damage inflicted by a group like this in 15 days?? Now compare that to the enviromental impact caused by YEARS of hiking in to find this cache.

I've been to all the caches in Ga. that are located in wilderness areas and NONE of them are damaging the enviroment. Most are located within just a few feet of an already established trail. It's a shame the FS has panicked and ruled in this fashion when they could've gone out and seen firsthand the effects of geocaching in these areas.

As I said in my post, this is probably one of the 3 best cache locations in Ga. Since the cache is going to be removed in 7 days, the only real chance most folks are going to have to visit is on Sat. Nov. 3rd. Don't pass up this chance, it's worth it....


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erik88l r
Administrator
(10/28/01 8:21:42 am)
Re: USDA Forest Service Geocaching Policy in GA

I agree with bent_twigs in principle, and as someone who has hidden caches w/o asking permission obviously agree in more than principle. However, the flip side is that eventually the rangers would have found the cache. Dozens of geocachers would have enjoyed that great hike and great cache hunt, but eventually the cache would have been discovered. It's only a matter of time.

What happens then is a knee jerk condemnation and confiscation of all geocaches. We saw that with the state parks. In the state parks someone had apparently placed a cache in a rare plant in a 'Conservation Park'. Doing so set back our sport as the Ga. State parks declared geocaching banned in all state parks, not just the conservation ones.

I guess mtn-man has lost a battle here, but won a war for us - "all other National Forest System lands on the Chattahoochee NF are suitable for geocaching" wrote the guy who shot him down on this cache.

Hopefully we'll get the same sort of compromise from the Ga. Parks folks. Last I heard from Larry Blankenship was about a week ago. He said he was going to be working on our proposals.

Like bent_twigs said - go visit the Raven Cliff's cache while it's still there, it's among the best in Georgia. Then, after mnt-man moves it to a new spot, we can all hunt for it all over again. Life is good. ~erik~


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lmoseley
BigDog
(10/28/01 9:31:24 am)
Re: USDA Forest Service Geocaching Policy in GA

They allow people to camp for two week periods... and yet are worried about the impact of a couple of dozen people visiting a spot over the course of a year.

The way the bureaucratic mind works is a terrible thing to behold.

The simple way around this whole parks business is to use multi-part caches. Part one located off the parks property (so they can't find it by looking on geocaching.com), and contains the coords of part two, in the park.

Don't ask, don't tell.


Edited by: lmoseley at: 10/28/01 9:34:03 am


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CharlieP
Registered Geocacher
(10/28/01 11:24:56 am)
Bureaucracy ...

It would ne interesting to know if the NPS position on geocaching had anything to do with this. But, the tone of this Ranger's letter is reasonable, unlike the tone of NPS responses, so maybe not. In other words, there may be some hope here. It would appear that they envision a swarm of GPS toting geocachers streaming from the cities and stomping all over the "wilderness". As others have pointed out, this is highly unlikely. So I wonder if these guys would agree to a compromise, i.e., if a path to a cache begins to look like a potential problem, or some other problem develops, it would be moved or removed. That's certainly a better assurance of minimum impact than they get from campers and hikers. I also wonder if they would try (or legally could) restrict virtual caches. Considering that, it would appear to be in the best interest of all parties to cooperate.

I understand their concern about paths and possible large scale erosion, but it takes pretty heavy traffic to cause that. And we are talking about maybe less than a 100 foot off-trail walk in an area that is hundreds of square miles. It is also kind of ironic to think that for hundreds of years there were pathways crisscrossing all over these wilderness areas, paths made by the Native Americans and the deer, who had only one way to travel, by foot. And now foot paths are considered to be un-natural and destructive to a wilderness area. Oh well.

FWIW,
CharlieP


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mtn man
and puppymonster
(10/28/01 11:39:41 am)
Re: USDA Forest Service Geocaching Policy in GA

Sorry bent_twigs, I really thought I posted something about my permission quest via the list serve or the EZB. I have been looking this morning, and I guess I did not. I did announce it at the September meeting just after I talked about CafePress. I think I remember you there that day, but you did not log the meeting cache page. I told everyone there that day that I had received permission from the Ranger District that I have done my FS Volunteer work for. I have likely logged well over 2000 Volunteer hours. I really stopped counting some time ago. I went back to that district (where Raven Cliffs (RC) is located) to ask for permission. Ironically, the person I talked to first is the same person I met and started working with 14 years ago. He though it was a cool idea, and passed me to Blaine. He is the FS Special Uses Manager for the district. He talked to the main Special Uses Manager in Gainesville, and they said OK. I had been working on this since early August. I announced it at the September Meeting, and thought I told everyone I was going to hide one in RC. ALacy seems to confirm knowing about this in his log on the RC Cache page.

I felt it was important for me to ask them for permission because I have worked with them for so long. I know the Wilderness area is sensitive politically because I have dealt with some of the issues related to the RC area. They have banned rock climbing on the cliffs (I agree with this). They were going to ban camping there, but I complained a good bit about that and must have helped in some small way. You can still camp there. One thing I did as a volunteer is break up fire rings and restore the needless/I-got-here-too-late camping spots created by bad hikers in bad places. I worked on and off trail to keep the area open for camping so everyone could enjoy one of the few quiet areas that are left in GA.

You have to understand that many of these people are just my friends. I have had to rely on them in some pretty bad situations, and have always been treated as a very important person when I have called. I did so much with them that I have been issued a standard green Volunteer Uniform (several shirts) complete with the Volunteer Badge (2) and a personalized Chattahoochee nameplate. You really cannot tell I am not a Ranger unless you know what the Volunteer patch is on the right shoulder or look at my badge. My uniform shirt has the same FS patch on the left sleeve as the Ranger. I also had a radio for several years when I was in the woods every weekend. I have had to call for both injuries and idiots.

I am sorry but I felt obligated to ask them for permission. They have only asked me to move my cache, but I am sure the others will follow. As with the GA State Parks, I think we can make our case and one day get permission to place caches back in the Wilderness Areas. We can use caches in the other areas as examples of our impact (or lack of it). I REALLY like your point about the two week camping stay that is accepted now, maybe we can use that for part of our argument. My BIG point with Geocaching is to look at use numbers. We are LOW impact compared to other users. That is why I chose the area I did to place the RC Cache. You have a wide choice of options to go to the cache, and would most likely use a different way back to the trail. Anyone who sees you off trail thinks you have gone to the bathroom.

I think there is good news in the response. Your numbers are actually low. The Cohutta Wilderness is now over 90,000 acres alone I beleive. There are over 1,000,000 acres of FS land in GA (the FS web site is down). That gives us over 80 percent to use at this time (like the glass is more than half full). This affects me hard, though, because most of my work was in Wilderness Areas where they need volunteers the most.

You can do virtual caches in a Wilderness Area, so I will bring you back to this location and ask you to pay homage to the old cache and the hemlocks. I will also kick your virtual butt.

Thanks for the compliments up there, but I felt I needed to explain the reasoning behind this cache in more detail. I did not mean to spoil things for some people. It would have happened eventually, just like in the State Parks. It would have been bad if they just did the across the board ban like the State did. I think this a good thing.


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AJLacy
Super Poster
(10/28/01 12:32:04 pm)
Re: USDA Forest Service Geocaching Policy in GA

One quick question.
How do I (and others) find out where the bounders of the Wilderness areas are? So we can stay out of the off-limits areas?


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mtn man
and puppymonster
(10/28/01 1:04:42 pm)
Re: USDA Forest Service Geocaching Policy in GA

I was thinking of generating some sort of map.
I will let you know.

The website that bent_twigs references above on the "131,503" link in his post shows the wilderness areas in question, but the Cohutta Wilderness is now larger and "gobbled up" the Big Frog Wilderness. The total GA Wilderness is now more like 175,000 acres.

Edited by: mtn man at: 10/28/01 3:49:23 pm


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AJLacy
Super Poster
(10/28/01 7:15:58 pm)
Re: USDA Forest Service Geocaching Policy in GA

The map at bent_twigs link is way too small to tell if a cache is in the off limits area. Hopefully you can either make one or find a ready made one.


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mkrafick
Unregistered User
(10/28/01 8:24:44 pm)
Playing Devils Advocate

Being realitivly new to GeoCaching, the "bug" of hunting and finding caches has somewhat over-ridden my ingrained "leave no trace" beliefs.

Although, I myself have just hidden a cache this weekend - I do admit that it somewhat goes beyond the the theory of "leave no trace".

The first thing I started training myself to do when hunting GeoCaches was to look for worn trails, bent or snapped branches, eroded soil from boots climbing across hills, etc. I don't think any of you can truly say that geocaching does not have somewhat of an environmental impact. Granted, we can say "But they have camping" or "the trail is heavily traveled" - but does that make it any more excusable? And how much "wear" on a trail is acceptable?

The cache I planted this weekend is more of a test for me than anything. If I see that the area around the cache is becoming trampled, worn, or vandalized the cache is going to be removed and I will pull away from the sport of Geocaching. Because from what I can tell from other sites - there is no way of leaving a cache without disturbing the envoronment.

I am truly on the fence about this one - and the more the newness of the sport wears off and the more I see the condition of the environment around GeoCaches - the more I am begining to think GeoCaching is a bad idea for me personally.

Of course this is IMHO (in my humble opinion), and take it or leave it for what it is worth.


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mtn man
and puppymonster
(10/28/01 9:45:31 pm)
Re: Playing Devils Advocate

Keep one thing in mind.
I have hiked a lot. I wanted to do something to give something back to the woods I loved so much. I picked up paper and stuff because I just did not like the way it looked -- unnatural and ugly. I see toilet tissue still and I find a stick. It takes a second to move some leaves, stab it with the stick and bury it even under an inch or so of leaves. It will degrade, and still is not noticed under the small bunch of cover.
Bent_twigs mentioned this at one meeting... take a stick and drag it on the ground and rustle up some leaves as you leave if you see a weathered cache. If you have a moment, go out 100 feet or so and hand rake up some leaves and spread them near the trail. Pick up some small sticks and branches and throw them in there too. I kind of do this as a "Geovolunteer" so to speak. I have now had 40 visits to SOAP, and I just do this every so often. (The area has weathered fairly well.) Also, place caches in a small open area within an area of brush. Many caches are done this way, and you have a nice private spot to sit and look at the cache.


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bent twigs
Unregistered User
(10/29/01 1:36:55 am)
Show & Tell

Mtn-man..

You did the proper thing by going through the official channels and seeking approval for your cache. By being a FS volunteer AND a member of the GGA steering commitee, this was the only option open to you. The actual location of your cache (just off a short spur trail within 75 feet of an established camping spot) also showed your attempt to prevent damage to any previously undisturbed area. However after doing EVERYTHING right, you still ended up getting the rug pulled out from underneath you due to bureaucratic fear of something they probably didn't totally understand.

You said that you're going to remove the cache next sunday. Why don't you invite the ranger to go along with you to see exactly how and where the container is hidden. You could even give HIM the GPS & compass and let him do the navigation. Once he sees the care you took in choosing an area that had minimal potential for new enviromental damage, then maybe he'll have second thoughts and pass those thoughts back up his chain of command. At the very least, he'll have a much better idea of what geocaching is all about.


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mtn man
and puppymonster
(10/29/01 7:45:28 am)
Hmmmm.

VERYgood idea.

I will let you know on this thread if he will do it.


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lmoseley
BigDog
(10/29/01 8:13:38 am)
Re: Hmmmm.

I mentioned before the thought of having a multi-part cache with a container OUTSIDE a park with coordinates leading to a container INSIDE the park...

Although I am a contrarian and anti-authoritarian by nature, I can see the advantages to doing the opposite, as well.

It would be easy to establish a multi-part cache with one or more "virtual" caches within a park or wilderness area. You would have to visit the area (and thus be exposed to the beauty that the cache-placer had in mind) to get data that you use to build the coordinates of the actual cache container, placed outside of the restricted area.

Go to these coordinates (inside the park). At this location, locate the green trail sign. The sign has two words on it. Count the total number of letters in the two words. Save this number for use later.

Go to these second coordinates... find the historic plaque... look for the date... write down the last two digits of the date.

etc.


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AJLacy
Super Poster
(10/29/01 8:21:21 am)
re: Show & Tell

quote:

---

You said that you're going to remove the cache next sunday. Why don't you invite the ranger to go along with you to see exactly how and where the container is hidden.

---

If he will go, I see advantages with doing this even if Wilderness areas remain off limits. That being, it should help make him and his superiors conformable with the placing of geocaches in the national forests.


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Gossamyrrh
Registered Geocacher
(11/1/01 9:56:50 am)
Re: re: Show & Tell

Perhaps we should invite a ranger to a meeting to speak about the different classes of wildernesses. I'd assume that some are more sensitive than others, but I'm not sure where to find the information.


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LoCache
Administrator
(11/1/01 10:13:41 am)
Re: re: Show & Tell

An excellent idea Goss!